Does fresh paint need to breathe?

[njcarting1]

Shawn, I hope this helps you with your new freshly painted truck panels.

Or is it a myth?

It depends on how literal you read into the words. If you apply the common definition used for the word breath, then "No", paint does not need to breathe. If however you take a moment to understand the idea that is being expressed with this word, then I think you`ll understand why the word breathe is used when someone says, or posts to the Internet that "Paint needs to breathe".

The below is just my guestimation as to the story behind the theory or myth that paint needs to breathe. I may be wrong, but my years of working with both painters, detailers and serious car enthusiasts as well as teaching detailing classes makes me think that if I`m not dead on, I`m at least in the ball park. With that said, here my explanation of how the saying, "Paint needs to breathe" originated.

For the last 50 or so years, when a person would have their car painted, upon retrieving it from the painter, the painter would typically recommend that the owner wait for a period of time before applying a coat of wax or some type of paint sealant that seals the paint. The normal period of time that most painters recommend is anywhere from 30 to 60 days and sometimes longer, depending upon the painter. The reason for this waiting period is to allow the different solvents and other additives enough time to fully evaporate out of and off of the surface.

Wax and/or paint sealants, whether natural or synthetic, or a blend of both of these ingredients, seals the paint by coating over the surface and filling into any microscopic surface imperfections creating a barrier coating over the surface. This blocks, or inhibits these solvents from escaping through evaporation, or outgassing. Solvents also called thinners and reducers are used to thin the paint down so that it can be atomized into a spray when applied with a paint gun using compressed air.

When a customer arrives at a body shop or a dealership to pick up their car with its freshly applied paint, most painters will tell the customer to wait a certain number of days before applying wax, or paint sealant over their new paint job. If the customer agrees, then that`s probably as far as the discussion goes.

If the customer asks further questions as to why they must wait before applying a protective coating to their investment, then it is my belief that most painters would do their best to explain to the customer, in easy to understand terminology, so that the customer will understand and comply with his request. This is where I think the saying, paint needs to breathe, originated.

I don`t think most painters would try to explain that the solvents need to outgas in order for the paint to fully dry and harden, instead, I think they would use a more simple approach and merely tell the customer that their new paint needs to breathe.

The above fictional analogy is probably as accurate as any assumption as to how the theory that paint needs to breath was started. (I`m open to other theories however.)

People that understand the painting process understand that paint doesn`t literally need to breathe; they do understand that fresh paint needs to outgas. This means that for a period of time, the solvents and other carrying agents, which are used to dilute paint to a thin viscosity so that it can be sprayed out of a pressurized air sprayer, need to work their way out of the paint through the evaporation process, also referred to as outgassing.

Read the below two scenarios and then decide for yourself, which scenario sounds more plausible.


In an effort to explain to their customers why paint manufactures recommend waiting for at least 30 days to pass before applying a coating of wax or a paint sealant, the painter can,
1. Try to explain the outgassing process over and over again throughout their career.
2. Use a simple analogy that the average person can understand without challenging the painter`s judgment or expertise.
My personal guess is the second option.

If the simple analogy works, it will accomplish the painter`s goal and allow the painter to get back to work, not spend his time explaining the painting process to each customer as they pick up their car. The goal of course is to prevent the customer from sealing the paint with some type of wax or paint sealant until the paint has completely dried and the out-gassing process is completely over.


* Paint does not need to breathe in the literal sense that you and I need to breathe as living human beings.
* Paint does need to breathe in the sense that fresh paint needs to outgas.
Of course, in the last 50 years or so since World War II ended and the car crazy culture really revved up in America, (no pun intended), the result has been explosive growth in the collision repair and custom painting industries. It should be no surprise that the idea that paint needs to breathe has finally reached enough of a critical mass as to be the topic of discussion on numerous discussion forums as well as anywhere a couple of car enthusiasts gather to talk shop.

Depending on how literal you want to read into it, when someone states "Paint needs to breathe", what they probably mean is that fresh paint needs to outgas, they probably just don`t know, or understand the term outgas, and/or they are confused like many people who have gone before them and are operating under the wrong idea innocently.

A different, but related version of the above would be someone that applies the same idea that paint needs to breathe to the paint on a brand new car which is also false unless the new car has been painted within the last 30 to 90 days. Sometimes during shipping from the assembly plant to the dealership show room floor, new vehicles are damaged and need repair including repainting. If all the paint on the car is the factory original paint, then it was baked on at the factory as it traveled down the assembly line and was completely cured before it left the assembly plant and it is perfectly safe to apply a coating of wax or a paint sealant of some type. If the car has been repainted due to damage during transit, then the areas with fresh paint should not be sealed with wax until the recommended waiting period has passed.

Well, this is my stab at the "Paint needs to breathe theory".
__________________
Mike Phillips
Office: 800-869-3011 x206
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek.net
"Find something you like and use it often"

[mrclean81]

From my experiance growing up around body shops and working in a few differant ones throughout my life, this is very accurate. I was always told not to wax fresh paint even though I wanted to. Very good write ups man

[Mike Phillips]

Here`s the link to my original article date Nov 17th, 2004


Paint Needs to Breathe


Almost every article I write I make the "Title" of the article a blue clickable link to the article itself and it should be included anytime my articles are copied and pasted to another forum as that`s proper Netiquette for giving the "owner" of the article a link back to the originating site of the article.

Including the author`s name at the beginning is also nice.

[Poorboy]

today`s paints (water-based) are totally different than those described.
A few years has changed the body shop industry quite a bit.
Waxing is now acceptable upon receipt of the vehicle from a body shop.
This is not an absolute as different shops are using different levels of technology, ie types of paint, types of paint booths etc ...
In fact when we were at a Corvette show a week or so ago, the President of the club had been rear ended a month previously and needed quite a bit of work. When I asked him how the car came out he said, "better than new."
I jokingly said, "I guess you won`t need any wax or sealant for a while." he said, " the body shop told him his paint was as cured as it is getting and to wax away at his leisure." I was told this same story from a local body shop using the "latest & greatest equipment and paint process."
Times are constantly changing and many of the old ideas will still be held by some, but progress continues with out without our consent.

[Mike Phillips]

today`s paints (water-based) are totally different than those described.

My article is based upon paint manufactures recommendations. The manufacture knows their product best. To date, I`ve never seen a paint manufacture state they recommend fresh paint be sealed with anything before at least 30 days have passed.

Regardless of their reasons, it`s their paint.

Now if you car is just a daily driver grocery getter then go for it...

But if you just spend 3 years restoring a 1967 Mustang Fastback and just got it back form the "Custom Paint Shop" with a spectacular paint job worthy of a restored or hot-rodded 1967 Mustang, AND because in most cases this car is going to be parked in a garage, then what`s the hurry to quickly seal up the fresh paint?

To date no ones ever posted a great answer to that question.

But to each their own... all paint manufactures that I know of state to wait at least 30 days before sealing the paint and some recommend longer.

If a person reading this just went to the expense of having their car painted and wants to take the advice of a person posting under a nickname on a forum, (in general, not you specifically Steve because this topic comes up on all car forums), then go for it...


As for me? The next time I paint a car or have a car painted, I`m going to wait 30 days before I seal it because I`m never in that much of a hurry.

Now I`m going to sand it, compound it and polish it to a high gloss using products that are "Body Shop Safe" or in other words designed for use on fresh paint, but I won`t put the frosting on the cake until around the 30 day mark.

Again... I won`t be in that big of hurry to lay down a layer of protection that is measured in sub-microns, I`ll be happy just to use a finishing glaze after all the machine work and it will still look great and more than likely it will be under cover, not returned immediately back on to the road as daily driver.

[atkinsonair]

Thanks for the info, I saw at the chevy body shop an ad on the wall for them using water base paints. So if i get my truck back this week i should be good for detail weekend at poorboys and be able to do the whole truck then. I assume it would be ok just to do pro polish on those repaired panels and then top them in a few weeks. Does high ambient temps help with the curing process?

[black bart]

Local body shop near me still uses solvent paint and they have a permit to spray with it.
I was told by the owner that they got the permit because they don`t spray much.

I think the large body shops are being forced into changing due to the new VOC laws.

The guy with the new Corvette would not likely get a paint job like the factory because it is awful.
I would not accept the paint that comes on most new Corvettes it is the worst paint job I ever saw on a new vehicle

[Poorboy]

Mike, I would always defer to the body shop that paints a vehicle as they are the ones who have to warranty their work. I have heard of some of the new Dupont paints being cured immediately but again I think that has to do with the paint booth and who is doing the work. The average local shop may not have the facilities or technology.

Sean, again I`d defer to the people who paint your truck

Bart, i thought the VOC was Federal but then again i could be wrong
and the paint shop also wet sanded and buffed out the rest of his car as well, and it does look awesome

[black bart]

Steve I did not ask him if it was state or federal but I will ask about it.

At this point all I know is he said since they only paint about 10 cars per month most is just partial paint jobs they got a permit to use solvent base paint.

They have about a 40 foot stack on the paint both so it vents high in the air but still puts out the same amount it is just high before being discharged.

The fumes from the booth go through a big water tank before going out the stack and the state inspects it regularly.

[David Fermani]

"Paint needs to breathe based on what the paint manufacturer and body shop recommends"........

Interesting thing is that the opinion on waiting periods vary not only amoung different paint manufacturers, but actually within the actual company itself. Same goes for body shops(lets not even go down the road of people`s opinion on detail forums). I`ve had reps from almost every paint line out there as well as a few distributors give me mixed opinion ranging from 0 to 120 days. I know a few body shops (high end at that) that wax every car that they do without a single come back they say. The common thing that almost every one tells me though is that baking paint dramicatically speeds up the cross-linking of solvent based paint. Many say to the point that they are confident waxing/sealing as well as even applying a clear bra to the fresh surface. Don`t think reputable shops want to take a gamble of doing something that could cost them money and customers by promoting their product to fail. This topic of discussion has been beaten to death. All without any real world proof showing failed paint resulting from premature waxing/sealing. Would I seal fresh paint? Yeah probably with a water-based product like Optimum Car Wax that is produced and recommended by a former PPG paint chemist. Dr. G seems to be as or more knowledgeable than anyone else I`ve talked to thus far.

[Anthony O.]

This is one tough topic to agree upon across the board.

I always thought you had to wait 30 or more days also but after getting some time to talk with chemists, and yes one of them my good friend Dr. G at Optimum, I came to understand that shortly after cars get out of a paint booth (body shop) they are buffed with compounds, polishes and glazes, many times wet sanded. So a layer of wax (that does not bond to paint) is going to harm the paint but not all the other stuff a body shop does to a paint before the customer picks it up?

When a car is painted in the factory it gets the base color then the clear. How does the base "gas out" through the top coat of clear? Understand that paint, on a microscopic level, is tightly cross linked so nothing can penetrate it unless it is smaller on a microscopic level. If, again, wax lays on top of the painted surface and is not cross linked is it not also possible that the paint can gas out still?

I have polished and waxed numerous cars after being painted, some days and others hours fresh and not one has come back with any issues.

Anthony

[black bart]

Yes you can polish fresh paint but polish is NOT wax.

The part that makes no sense to me is what do you gain by taking a chance and sealing the paint.

If you wait 60 days the paint is not going to deteriorate in that short time you can wash polish and seal so why do you want to risk screwing up a new paint job.

[Anthony O.]

Yes you can polish fresh paint but polish is NOT wax.

The part that makes no sense to me is what do you gain by taking a chance and sealing the paint.

If you wait 60 days the paint is not going to deteriorate in that short time you can wash polish and seal so why do you want to risk screwing up a new paint job.

Wax does not "seal" paint. Who said it "seals" paint? It just lays on top of the paint, think of it like a layer of oil or grease.

In reality it doesn`t hurt to wait at all yet I believe, IMHO, that waxing with the proper wax will not harm fresh paint either.

[JaredPointer]

Wax does not "seal" paint. Who said it "seals" paint? It just lays on top of the paint, think of it like a layer of oil or grease.

In reality it doesn`t hurt to wait at all yet I believe, IMHO, that waxing with the proper wax will not harm fresh paint either.

Maybe "seal" isn`t the right word, but I think I understand what`s being said here. If the question is letting the paint "outgas", wouldn`t anything covering the surface be an impediment that the gasses would need to overcome? Be it wax, oil, grease or cross-linked polymer sealant made in an independent and high-tech secret laboratory. {This part being just a rhetorical question}

I don`t know which way I lean here - most likely I`d follow what the body shop suggested since they did the work and I assume they know what they`re talking about. I would think that if you, as a professional detailer, instructed someone on a particular instance and they didn`t heed your advice (say not washing the car or getting it wet for 12 hours after you use a sealant that specified that as cure time), you`d be irked if they brought it back to you a day(s) later and they had issues with it (sealant didn`t settle/cure properly).

It`s easier for me to be cautious (i.e. not put anything on it) rather than to throw caution to the wind and think I can do whatever I want (use the "proper" wax), even if I`ve been told differently just due to the fact that I have a little education about the subject.

[Mike Phillips]

Friend of mine contacted all or most of the major paint supplies or visited their websites and made asked what the "Paint Manufactures" recommended for a waiting time.

His name is Paul and he goes by the forum nickname the other pc

Anyone that knows him knows he`s an upright, straight shooting guy and an engineer by trade. He posted to the MOL forum at the time he did his research, (and engineers by trade are pretty good at doing research), that there was not a single paint manufacture that recommended sealing fresh paint with a coat of wax or a paint sealant before at a minimum 30 air-cure. Some recommended longer.

I don`t have any interest in debating or arguing with anyone whether the science behind the "Paint Manufactures` reasoning is for "their" recommendations, I`ll leave that to you guys, I`m just stating what Paul found out and I trust Paul.

Now one of you can take it upon yourselves in you feel passionate enough about the topic to prove you know more about this topic than anyone else including the paint manufactures to do the research and then post your findings.

Pretty simple really.

I too talked to David about this when he was here to showcase his new polish...

YouTube - Autogeek`s New Product Showcase - Optimum Hyper Polish Spray Pt. 1


And I like and trust what David Ghodoussi told me was accurate and was similar to what David Fermani posted and I don`t honestly think anything negative would happen to a catalyzed basecoat/clearcoat paint system if a person were to seal it before 30 days air-cure.

I`m just sharing what an engineer friend of mine found out when he did the research. Operating under the assumption that a manufacture knows their product best, then at the time he did his research all paint manufactures stated to wait at least 30 days.

Again, you can all seal your new paint the next day if you like, heck it`s your car, your paint, your money. Or your can argue and debate this topic till it`s been beaten to death, that`s up to you.

There`s always the theory that the reason paint manufacturers recommend a waiting time is just as a type of insurance for the least common denominator in the masses just to kind of Bubba-Proof the process. After all, for most people, waiting 30 days to wax their new paint job certainly won`t cause any problems.

A worst case scenario would be a bird leaves a dropping on a fresh paint job on a car parked out in a parking lot... it could damage the paint.

But a bird dropping could and probably would damage any paint no matter how old it was...

I`m confident you will all sort this out...